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Ad position

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# 1
Visitor ✭ ✭ ✭

Hi, 

 

In order to understand more avg. position parameter, specially avg. position regard to the page appearance. Adwords provide a suggestion for each keyword about the min. bid I need in order to appear in the first page, but judging by the avg. position, lost impression share and my max. bid, it seems like this bid suggest is meaningless (I also took in consideration difference between hours), the only thing I didn't took in my consideration, because I couldn't, is the "page issue" (as I saw, information about my page appearance, given only in CLICK_PERFORMANCE_REPORT through Adwords API). Moreover, how does the avg. position been calculated if an ad can be shown in different pages?

 

I made some tests to explore more about this issue, I clicked on my ad which appeared on the second page (and didn't appeared on the first page), in the first page there were ads, and in the second page my ad was in the second position on "Top". I saw this click in the keyword performance report, and the avg. position was 2.0, for the record the row contained only 1 impression with 1 click (my click) so avg. position for this case was the actual click position. Judging by the avg. position definition (defined here), it's goes along. Also I want to mention that in my value track table the position of this click reported as "second page, top, second position".

 

One more thing about this issue, also I saw that same ads can be shown in different pages in different positions, let's say I got 2 clicks (or even these 2 impressions) on the same query on the same ad, but in different positions/pages, what will I see in my reports? 2 clicks? Or if 1 click, which one of them?

 

I hope someone can help me to understand this issue.

 

Thanks,

Shai 

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Accepted by topic author Shai K
July 2016

Re: Ad position

Top Contributor
# 9
Top Contributor

@Shai K;

I ran a few tests, but the results were not conclusive. In 2 tests the "position numbering" continued to the 2nd page, and in (other) 2 tests the ad position was reset on the 2nd page, as you claimed.

I have my own theory about the cause, but this would be a speculation... The change seems to be dated to the last change (in  page layout)  of removing the side ads.

I have escalated the case to Google requesting a specialist to explain the behavior.

Please be patient until Google replies.

 

Moshe, AdWords Top Contributor , Twitter | Linkedin | Community Profile | Ad-Globe
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Re: Ad position

[ Edited ]
Top Contributor
# 2
Top Contributor

@Shai K;

A similar question was discussed a few days ago. Though the initial  question was a bit different, the discussion itself  should provide an answer to your question;

Digits of precision for Average Position






Moshe, AdWords Top Contributor , Twitter | Linkedin | Community Profile | Ad-Globe
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Re: Ad position

Visitor ✭ ✭ ✭
# 3
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Hi @MosheTLV,

I read the full discussion you referred me to. I can't see how it's answer my question, I also disagree with your arguments you raised: I don't think that avg. position parameter shown in the relevant, reports is statistical (it is statistical but not from the reason you said). The avg. position displayed is the actual avg. position which the impressions got aggregated in the specific row but after some rounding (notice that 1 impression will always get x.0 avg. position, and 2 impressions will always get x.0 or x.5 avg. position and so on...).

But let us put this aside, still if 2 impressions in different pages are calculated to one avg. position, how this calculation is preformed?

Thanks,

Re: Ad position

Top Contributor
# 4
Top Contributor

@Shai K;

As to the first part of your post: what I'm saying is that since Google does not report  the standard deviation, then, for an average position to be a statistical variable within a common level of confidence, a big enough sampling size (i.e. Impressions) is required. "2" is not a considered a big enough "sampling size". (Another example: For QS  Google waits until there are enough impressions to calculate QS, based on your own campaign performance. Until this data is available at "default" QS is reported.) 

 

As to the second part of your post: there was once a good article, on the help center,  explaining in details with an example, how ads are circulating among consecutive pages. For some reason it was removed. I did find, though, the following:

>>"The highest position is "1," and there is no "bottom" position. An average position of 1-8 is generally on the first page of search results, 9-16 is generally on the second page, and so on...

https://support.google.com/adwords/answer/14075?hl=en

 

 

Moshe, AdWords Top Contributor , Twitter | Linkedin | Community Profile | Ad-Globe
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Re: Ad position

Visitor ✭ ✭ ✭
# 5
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Hi again @MosheTLV,

First, I still doubt your argument about avg. position as a statistical parameter you think. But, regard to the second part, lets say I agree with your argument. If we focus on rows in the relevant reports I hold which have 2 impressions or less, (then all the statistical reasons doesn't hold) I still can't understand the avg. position parameter. I read the definition of this parameter you attached, I also attached the same link in my original question (see above). The reason I attached this link is that the experiments I did, told me a different story on the avg. position parameter (I detailed about one experiment and his result in the original question, you can look). I still don't get how this parameter calculated, even for simple/"small" cases...

I want to mention that I made some research on this issue, to be honest, I couldn't find a proper answer.

Shai

Re: Ad position

Top Contributor
# 6
Top Contributor

@Shai K;

We are not on the same page here... 

Please review the links I provided, including the reference from the help center how positions are numbered....

 

The average is calculated as  a simple arithmetic mean calculation

 

An average (by definition) is a misleading variable unless the "spread" (aka  standard deviation) is reported: what is  the average of position 1 and 9? (one impression on the top 1st page and another on the second page):  that would be 5. This is also the average of positions 3 and 7. But, while in the first example the spread  is +-4, in the latter, it's +-2. Which makes a huge difference.... Smiley Surprised

For the standard deviation to be a variable / metric you "can count on" (i.e. Has  a level of confidence you can rely on) the number of impressions (i.e. the sampling size) must be big enough to calculate a standard deviation within the level of confidence set by Google. (Commonly 95%)

 

However, Google does not report the standard deviation. So, an average position has to taken with caution. I prefer  the reporting of top of the page which is an accurate metric reporting  the (percentage of)  impressions   the ad being shown above  organic search;

 

Moshe, AdWords Top Contributor , Twitter | Linkedin | Community Profile | Ad-Globe
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Re: Ad position

Visitor ✭ ✭ ✭
# 7
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@MosheTLV

For the record, I have enough background in statistics, all the parameters you mentioned are well known to me including "level of confidence", "standard deviation", "arithmetic mean" and "sampling size".

Again, lets say that I talk about a row in one of my report that which contain ONLY 1 IMPRESSION, in this case, all the statistical parameters you mentioned aren't relevant. My final goal is to understand the avg. position regard to the page position.

To be more clear, let me tell you on another test I did: I took a keyword which didn't had an impression in the last month (rare one, trust me) and I did a query one her. I went through 3 pages, in all of them my ad as been displayed, in the first page my ad was in position 2, in the second page my ad was in position 3 and in the third page my ad was in position 2, then I close this window (just to be on the safe side). Then I checked this impression/s in my reports. I saw 3 impressions, the avg. position of these impressions was 2.3 which is: (2+3+2)/3 = 2.33333 => (rounding) => 2.3 as reported. As you can understand (like I did) this avg. position calculated WITHOUT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT the page position, moreover, these 3 impressions are the same query (which is a different story, how to understand uniqueness of events...). I advise you to preform similar tests.

One more thing, I actually did reviewed ALL of the links you attached, (BTW, I didn't told you, but thanks for your attention!), maybe I wasn't clear enough in my last post, we did shared the same link (only one), this link: https://support.google.com/adwords/answer/14075?hl=en . As I saw the things: I shared this link together with my experiment result to say that it's not as they say it is (of-course I talk about avg. position regard to the page), you shared this link to refer me to the definition of Adwords avg. position.

I repeat again: My final goal is to understand the avg. position regard to the page position.

Thanks again,
Shai

Re: Ad position

Top Contributor
# 8
Top Contributor
OK;
I will try to replicate the test you ran, on my accounts,
I'll get back to you.
Moshe, AdWords Top Contributor , Twitter | Linkedin | Community Profile | Ad-Globe
Did you find any helpful responses or answers to your query? If yes, please mark it as the ‘Best Answer’
Marked as Best Answer.
Solution
Accepted by topic author Shai K
July 2016

Re: Ad position

Top Contributor
# 9
Top Contributor

@Shai K;

I ran a few tests, but the results were not conclusive. In 2 tests the "position numbering" continued to the 2nd page, and in (other) 2 tests the ad position was reset on the 2nd page, as you claimed.

I have my own theory about the cause, but this would be a speculation... The change seems to be dated to the last change (in  page layout)  of removing the side ads.

I have escalated the case to Google requesting a specialist to explain the behavior.

Please be patient until Google replies.

 

Moshe, AdWords Top Contributor , Twitter | Linkedin | Community Profile | Ad-Globe
Did you find any helpful responses or answers to your query? If yes, please mark it as the ‘Best Answer’